05-20-2013 01:06 PM
I am looking to find some Pratt and Lambert Varmor Clear Urethane Satin R11. I understand that they have discontinued it. Does anyone know where I can buy some and or a replacement that keeps the light look.
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05-20-2013 03:06 PM
…to the WOOD Magazine Forums, particularly to the Finishing & Refinishing Forum. I hope you will visit often. You will find a number of accomplished woodworkers and finishers here who stand ready to assist you with your finishing and refinishing questions.
R11 is (was) simply Polyoneverythane, there is nothing particularly unique about the product. Any satin Polyoneverythane will look pretty much the same. If you are looking for a truly clear varnish finish that will not yellow then you may want to look in the Pratt & Lambert #38. It is an alkyd resin (as opposed to urethane resin) varnish made from soya (soybean) oil. It goes on much lighter (clearer) and does not yellow over time. It is also harder and much easier to repair should the need ever arise…
05-20-2013 04:15 PM
Welcome to the forums of Woodmagazine.com, Jerry. I'd also like to invite you to explore the video channels as well.
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There are two channels you can look at for specific subjects:
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And finally, don't forget you can use the site search function, located at the top of the forum pages to bring up past articles of interest too!
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05-20-2013 05:30 PM
Jerry, welcome to the forums… Glad you're here... Pull up a seat and make yourself to home...
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05-21-2013 01:27 PM
I was just taking with Pratt and Lambert and they said because Pratt & Lambert #38. is a resin I should not apply it over the wood where I have the Pratt and Lambert Clear Urethane 11. In checking around futurer I called Waterlox and it appears that Waterlox Satin XL89 Urethane would be able to be applyed over the Pratt and Lambert Clear Urethane satin R11 . In reading the reviews it appears that the Waterlox Satin XL89 Urethane is close and perhaps even superior substitute for the discontinued Pratt and Lambert r11, and would give me a light applicattion that would not yellow over time. Does anyone disagree or have any better suggestions.
05-21-2013 02:40 PM
I believe you spoke to someone who didn't know what they were talking about. First, both the P&L poly and the P&L varnish are resin products. The poly uses a urethane resin while the varnish uses an alkyd resin. Both are varnishes and there is absolutely no incompatibility with the P&L 38 and the P&L Poly.
However any poly finish will have reduced adhesion when another coat of finish (alkyd or poly) is applied. Therefore you need to scuff sand the poly finish with 280 or 320 grit paper to get proper adhesion.
05-22-2013 04:13 AM
… and make sure we are on the same page. I took your original post to simply be an inquiry about a varnish that would give you a “light look”. In reading our question again I see the possibility (perhaps probability) that you are in the middle of a project in which you have already begun to apply poly. So, for clarification, are you looking for a replacement varnish or are you looking for a product that you can apply next to (and atop) the now discontinued P&L R11?
Why might this be important and why have both P&L and Waterlox given you that advice you received? By way of background, all varnish (polyoneverythane is varnish) is composed of a drying oil and a resin. (This article may be helpful to your understanding.) But, when combined in the manufacturer of varnish all drying oils and all resins do not produce the same properties; the same attributes in a varnish product. If they did there would be no reason for different varnish formulations. Cutting to the chase, the primary attribute of urethane resin varnish is somewhat superior abrasion resistance. But, when used in applications where abrasion resistance is not a primary or even secondary requirement, the negative baggage of polyoneverythane can be significant. Urethane resin, when cooked with a drying oil to produce varnish results in varnish molecules that are significantly larger than those produced in either alkyd or phenolic resin varnish. This leads to a finish film that resides more on the surface (less able to bond with the cell structure of wood) and a finish film that exhibits significantly poorer adhesion between coats of varnish; even coats of poly unless each coat is thoroughly sanded to provide a mechanical bond.
It is the well known issue of poor adhesion that has prompted the advice you received from both P&L and Waterlox. This is not an issue of ignorance on the part of these spokesmen. Indeed, it is the result of knowing exactly what they are talking about in the real world of giving advice to amateur/hobbyist/home woodworkers. As Howie has said, urethane resin varnish should be thoroughly scuff sanded between coats to improve adhesion. Going a bit further, even bare wood should not be sanded beyond 220P before the first coat of polyoneverythane is applied. But in the real world of woodworking we have woodworkers who sand bare wood far beyond 220 and who sand between coats of finish to ridiculously high grits in the mistaken belief that doing so will yield a superior finish. We even see woodworkers who regularly use steel wool between coats which is an open invitation to poor adhesion.
So, in your technical service job with a high quality finish manufacturer you take a call from a woodworker whose understanding of finishes you cannot judge, whose experience cannot be measure and whose willingness to understand and follow instructions is unknown. He asks you about applying your alkyd resin soya oil varnish or your phenolic resin tung oil varnish over poly. How will you respond? Can these things be done? Sure! But, in the real world if something goes wrong it won’t be the fault of the finisher, it will be due to faulty finish…